Hack, Slash, Loot, Chat
Post a Reply Post a Reply  
About randomness in this game There are 6 replies
Original Message posted by Swisside on 23/05/2012 at 8:24:27AM
Hi everyone,

While I cannot sleep tonight due to some jet lag issues, I just decided since I'm definitely bored to fail with every single character except the amazon and its super powerful divine staff, to discuss about the randomness of this awesome game.

After reading the "review" which lead to the videos from the creator of this game on youtube I tried to think a bit more about the frustration that lead to the article.

First let's talk about the spawn. I don't know how it is coded but I realized they are many different initial situations a player can face, here are some examples:
-empty room
-1 enemy
-2 enemies
-combinations of ennemies plus treasure chest and barrels

Only those few examples already account for some sort of randomness because if you start with a ranged character almost every time you face 2+ enemies you are not likely to make it passed the first room

Of course if you start with some artifacts and a melee character it's less a problem. Still some enemies even if they have have low hit chance have damage of 15-16 which would potentially kill any melee in 3-4 shots depending which one it is.

Then if we just take a closer look at an encounter randomness is still high. Let's think for instance of a Wizard facing a goblin (not unarmed which is really likely 13/14 according to the wiki) The numbers are (hit/hit dmg/def/hp)
-Wizard : 60/8/0/20
-Goblin's approx. stats are : 17/15-20/2/15

So even if we are first to strike some luck is needed since we have 60% to hit for max 6 which means hitting at least 3 times to kill - even more if not lucky. In the meantime even if the goblin has a low hit % it only needs to hit you twice let say. Now the probability that you hit 3 times in a row is .6^3 = 21.6% or 1/5 and the probability that the goblin doesn't kill you by the end of the second round is equivalent to missing the first or the second shot so : .17*(.83) + .83*.17 = 28% (not sure about that one tho). What we see according to my certainly not so accurate computations is that its pretty much 50/50 to survive an encounter with one enemy. If they are two enemies things get worse obviously.

To summarize this short reflection I would like to conclude that even if the creator did show it was possible to succeed with the initial characters it highly relies on luck which he hasn't mentioned as far as I know. Still this game kicks asses and randomness is everywhere anyways :D

Wish you guys the best.

 Replies To This Post:
on 24/05/2012 at 2:29:12AM
Total Posts: 0
Not true
on 24/05/2012 at 2:25:36AM
Total Posts: 0
I think you're right and that I really must've been unlucky for dying so much in the first room.

Cleared 2 turns
Cleared 2 turns
cleared 3 turns
cleared 2 turns

*with the "old" wizard

Damn just died again in another quest against the Deep dwarfs and their 18 armor.
on 24/05/2012 at 2:24:39AM
Total Posts: 0
*edit fail
David Williamson
on 23/05/2012 at 3:06:29PM
Total Posts: 2
And in v8 the Wizard is 62/12 Lightning, 0, 20
on 23/05/2012 at 1:45:35PM
Total Posts: 0
"So even if we are first to strike some luck is needed since we have 60% to hit for max 6 which means hitting at least 3 times to kill"

No, Magic damage ignores Defense.
David Williamson
on 23/05/2012 at 10:35:56AM
Total Posts: 2
Are people really having this much trouble with first room encounters? I occasionally get a bad start room, but people are talking like they are struggling to get out of the first room at all.

As you are talking about specific numbers and situations I thought I'd help and crunch some numbers with you. Firstly you are talking about goblins and so I guess we are analysing Journey to the Kimon. Other quests will have very different outcomes. I don't quite follow your working out so I'll show you what I've got. I'll take two very strong Goblins from JttK, the Battleaxe and the Raider.

The Battleaxe has 19/16 melee, 2 defence, 11 health. So she hits 19 out of 100 tries and we'll assume max damage for simplicity. So 16*(19/100) works out at 3.04 damge per turn(DPT). At that rate she kills the wizard in 7 turns. Remember she's quite a strong enemy.

Now the Raider, he has 28/17 melee, 1 defence, 15 health. 28 hits out of 100 tries doing 17 damage each is 17*(28/100) = 4.76DPT. He kills the wizard in 5 turns, and this is the strongest monster there is on level 1.

So to the Wizard. His stats, 60/8,0,20(These are the Wizards stats in FB7c, they are improved in v8), mean 8(60/100) = 4.8 DPT. He kills the Battleaxe in 3 turns, and the Raider in 4 turns. Wizard easily beats Battleaxe, and it's close against the Raider but Wizard still wins.

And that's against two of the strongest monsters on JttK level 1. lets look at some of the more common enemies on level 1.

Breeder(15/1,2,7) has a DPT of .15, meaning she kills the Wizard in 134 turns, and Wizard kills her in 2 turns.

Springling(10/2,0,5) DPT .2, kills Wizard in 100 turns, Wizard kills Springling in 2 turns.

Bruiser(17/15,2,9) DPT 2.55, kills Wizard in 8 turns, Wizard kills Bruiser in 2.

Now I suppose these stats could be interpreted in a few ways. To me they show even if you are dealt the worst start possible you have a good chance of surviving it, but most of the time you should have an easy ride of it.

And as stats can sometimes be misleading or hard to visualise I just quickly played the first room of JttK 10 times as the Wizard. No artifacts or special tactics, I just went toe-to-toe with whatever spawned. Here are the results.

1. Cleared in 3 turns
2. Empty
3. Empty
4. Cleared 2 turns
5. Empty
6. Empty
7. Empty
8. Cleared 1 turn
9. Cleared 4 turns
10. Cleared 4 turns
*Disclaimer - These are with the Wizards new stats(v8). I don't have FB7c on this machine so couldn't test them at this time.

Feel free to quickly try the first room challenge yourselves, and post your results I'd be interested to see how others do.